Moving things to database

[harvald]

I'm not a programmer, but i know thing or two about it. Writing mod can be difficult and most people couldn't do it. Development of code means that it become more and more complicated. Even worse is making mods compatible with each other, but not only on programming level, but from player experience perspective. In this conditions i think hard coded configurations like "hardness", "burnable", "solid", etc. of blocks and items are not the best solution.

Maybe forge could move those things to some sort of database. This could reduce greatly amount of code needed to add new items. In fact only new physics, rendering options, or new attributes have to be in code. If one mod developer introduce code of new attribute and add it to forge dictionary, anyone could use it instantly.

I think it also could simplify moving mods from one version of minecraft to another.

 

What do you think?

[LexManos]

No, we're not re-writing Minecraft's engine to the sole benefit of cosmetic blocks.

It is already ungodly simple to create new blocks. No need to make it simpler for some and more of a pain for others.

[harvald]

I understand your argument, but i don't know if you understand larger picture i have in mind.

 

Do you know RPG games? Maybe World of Warcraft? This kind of games have a lot of skill levels and difficulties for a game to be challenging. Minecraft is good in aspect of building, but cannot be developed in other aspects. Simply there is no place for monster with strength 1 and 1 000 000 000. Without that in only few hour player could go through all mobs. Current difficulty settings in game is a joke. The same thing in example is about  building block strength. There is absolutely no possibility to build mighty castle which could be conquered and destroyed, but with challenge. Currently there is none item that is really rare, unique, precious. There is too little space in tiers between stick and diamond. People adds aesthetic block only because adding something else is difficult and because core mechanics of the game is in the way. 

[LexManos]

Again, we're not re-writing the entirety of minecraft for something like cosmetic changes. {Mob strength is cosmetic}

Yes, I do Know WoW, and I do know how it's setup. I have many years experience in it's scene.

Just 'being a database' will not do what you want. You need people to actually sit down and design everything.

And that's not gunna happen here.

A major mod COULD do everything you want without editing base classes. But they'd be basically writing an entirely new data engine on top of minecraft.

This is Not something that Forge should do.

[harvald]

Ok, i understand. So how far forge can go in the future with helping mods to cooperate with each other? Is there a plan to create some tools to assist with building one coherent tree of recipes? Because now it needs for developers to specifically add recipes for cooperation with each other mod. Of course this cannot be done for every possible combination and for mods that are not exist yet. 

[LexManos]

In-game content is soley the responsibility of the modders.

Forge does not moderate any of that. We simply provide the tools to allow modders to do what they need to do without editing any of the vanilla classes.

 

It's up to modders to work together and create a 'coherent' gameplay experience.

And a lot of modders are doing that. With differnt setups if different mod combinations are installed.

But again, this is not the domain of Forge. We do not pose any restrictions or guidelines on the creativity of Modders.

The only things we do is make the Engine {minecraft} suitable for modders to work WITH not ON.

[harvald]

I don't meant moderation. I know forge don't do that like don't force which mod can use which block ids. Ore dictionary do not force anyone, but help with cooperation. I mean other things like that. Tool that can be used, but not have to.

 

I have watched development of minecraft from alpha stage. When mods have arrived there was anarchy because no mod could work with any other. Only after modloader, some order have arisen. Forge is step forward, but with new complexity of mods there are new problems and new tools are needed. Especially i'm concerned about great deal of work is wasted to overcome constantly updating mods to changes of minecraft base code. Tens of mods became obsolete and forgotten. How much could be done if this effort would be coordinated and work hours not wasted? I know, that should be responsibility of mojang, but they are deaf on arguments and ideas (and they are eager with promises like mods api, but lazy in fulfilling them). Forge from the beginning was common ground for all mods and this is his mission. If it would be tendency to build bigger teams in which developers would build super, big and wonderful mods then i could agree with you. Unfortunately there are hundreds of small mods and single mans at work.

 

 

[LexManos]

What exactly are you suggesting we do?

Go to each modders and push them with another modder and say "You're working with this guy now!"?

[harvald]

Hahaha, no, of course no! Sometimes encouragement is much better.

For a start you can make tool to generate graphical map of all recipes connections in the game. This can greatly improve the way how people could see how their mod fits to others, and could also help players to understand how mod works.

This is an example. This kind of stuff is not "moderating" or "rewriting engine". It is also relatively simple to do but useful.

 

If you don't like it, i can think of something else. Usually i'm full of ideas.

[harvald]

diesieben07 you have right that this particular example is more suited for NEI. (But now please go and update CameraCraft to 1.5.x and 1.6.x, because without those updates i cannot treat you seriously, sorry).

 

Development is a process to make things better. More functions and making them more efficient. I don't want to force any one solution, but i want to think of new ways, new ideas and path for the future. Don't see me as enemy, but as resource of ideas. I don't know every technical aspects of Forge, or any other mod, but my ideas still might be useful for someone. I'm not programmer, but i still want to be useful.

 

Besides, forge have "dormant chunk cache" and someone could say that this not fits to the idea that "if you install forge and no mods you should feel like it was pure vanilla", but something like Optifine. So please don't tell me there is a MIGHTY LAW that force only one strict direction of actions. I post the ideas, and developer chooses ones they like, and thats all.

 

About dormant chunks cache i wonder if it be useful for game trace of frequently used chunks and give them higher priority for keeping them in cache. Maybe even loading them first from list of needed chunks.

In field of loading chunks i see a great amount of things that can be upgraded. Square map is simple, but surely not effective. If we take distance of view for consideration, then circle would be optimal, because corners of map are less useful for player than middle area. Maybe some compromise between square and circle.

When traveling chunks should have more priorities than "in front of player" and "not if front of". Direction of moving and distance from player should have even greater impact than that. Often there is situation that game is loading chunk we are currently leaving before that we are currently entering. This is especially problem on slow network connections. So speed of movement should be taken for consideration to request chunk from server in advance.