Questions about the future of modding....

[vpontin]

Just venting off some thoughts i have after reading about the release of yet another modloader, Fabric, this time for 1.14 (snapshots) - just asked the same thing on FTB Reddit too...

 

Wouldn't all that new modloaders (Rift for 1.13, Fabric for 1.14) fragmentate the modding community as time goes on? Not only on different software, but also in versions (one modloader per version, etc)...

 

Forge is going through a challenging time by all those changes necessary for future updates, and its very solid and capable, plus this isnt the first time devs needed more time to work in an update.

 

But this scenario (others trying to make alternative modloaders with such voracity) never happened before, at least what such strength (liteloader was a lonely happening in 1.6).

 

Should i, as a modded player, be worried about all of this? From what i read in Fabric release on FTB reddit, they arent sure it will be compatible with Forge at all.

 

And for the modders on the forum: did you think people will "return" to Forge as soon new builds came off?

 

Anyway, thanks to open the space for us to talk about...

 

[Cadiboo]

These small loaders give Modders and players the ability to preview and get a feel for the new versions, but their purpose is definitely not to replace Forge. At this point Forge is pretty much a proper API.

Also, Rift has legal problems; and Fabric is recreating all of the MCP mappings to avoid some of those legal problems.

Both loaders are encouraging Modders to use coremods (mostly Mixins) to add features, a thing Forge discourages. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, with Modders (hopefully) gaining more knowledge about how java works and what their code does. However, obviously coremods have a bit of a tendency to blow up unexpectedly (especially those created by people new to coremodding), so a large amount of coremods being created for 1.13+ isn’t great.

Also neither modloader provides an event based API (one of the best features of Forge IMO) though Rift has expressed interest in providing one.

I know that my mods will definitely “return” to forge within very short period of its official 1.13 release

[vpontin]

Thanks Cadiboo for the answers (dont know why the forum doesnt notificate me before)!

 

After so much pain in replacing Bukkit i will not risk to rely on Rift mods in my modpack, so will stick on Forge 1.12.x until 1.13 comes and, just for sake of curiosity, i will test Fabric and ComputerCraft for 1.14 snapshots.

[LexManos]

The problem with most alternative mod loaders, is that they are created out of spite with "Fuck Forge" as their motivation.

But then they use our tools, our data, and our work to make their system.

That's the thing that pisses me off about things like Rift.

 

I have not looked at Fabric so i can't comment on what they are doing, or if they are doing it correctly/legally.

 

However, I would also advise against using any loader that "gives the hooks to the users", by "exposing" mixins and encouraging the average user to use it. Because that flat out won't work. The reason Forge has compatibility with so many mods is because we've cultivated all the internal hooks as clean changes that make it so modders DON'T have to break things in MC code to make their mods work. So you can get a couple nice mods yes, but it'll become difficult when you start trying to create modern mod packs.

 

As for updating to snapshots. I update the mappings internally when I get time cuz I like seeing what has changed. I would LIKE to make those mappings public but it isn't worth doing as they are not the highest quality and we loose a lot of information. I am looking for people who are willing to help create open source versions of some of the internal tools I use {which I did not create and thus is not my place to release} as well as a better three way binary mapping generator.. If anyone actually wants to help out on that, hop on discord either Forge's or sponge's and we can talk...

 

Anyways, using 3rd party smaller loaders just to explore the new vanilla code is fine. But do not expect stable or useful releases from those.

[grownupgamer]

I've pondered this issue too, and for now, I am content to spread my gaming time a bit more broadly.  I tried Skyrim SE (The Elder Scrolls) for the first time, a week or so ago.  Interesting to me, that game ALSO has a bit of diversity in how people mod it and run it.  Several different "mod organizers" are in use in that gaming tribe.  Like @vpontin, I am mostly happy to continue on 1.12 Minecraft games while we wait for a new Forge update.  (My two young grandsons casually play 1.13, but they are not seriously doing a lot there, so I get a glimpse when I visit them, of the updates. )

 

I do admit that checking on the status of work on Forge keeps me looking in here, and staying abreast of things MineCraft!

 

Neither game is all that bad played Vanilla, IMO.  However, both do look a lot nicer with mods and some of the things mods can let a player try, are worth the wait.

[grownupgamer]

Popping my head up, just to say, I'm still keeping up on things Forge and MC.  I've lately begun playing a couple of 1.13 worlds in earnest - those grandsons having renewed their interest in this game, with Pokemon Go interest ebbing some for them.  Yay!

 

Be well, all!

 

[napentathol]

On 12/13/2018 at 11:47 AM, LexManos said:

I have not looked at Fabric so i can't comment on what they are doing, or if they are doing it correctly/legally.

Here it is: https://fabricmc.net/

Wouldn't it make sense to build forge on top of fabric? Or, at the very least, use fabric's yarn?

[Cadiboo]

1 hour ago, napentathol said:

Wouldn't it make sense to build forge on top of fabric?

No. Fabric uses Mixins to inject hooks into MC while Forge uses bin patches that are applied at install time. Fabric also encourages its mods to use a Mixin based approach, while Forge uses its own hooks and encourages mods to use the event system.

1 hour ago, napentathol said:

Or, at the very least, use fabric's yarn?

Potentially, however MCP is deeply ingrained into Forge, Forge’s patches and Forges toolchain, so transitioning from MCP to Yarn would be difficult.

[yuusha]

Speaking of the future of modded Minecraft, I'm more interested in Bedrock v. Java. I heard that some mod authors talked with Mojang about the Bedrock scripting API.

[LexManos]

13 hours ago, Cadiboo said:

Potentially, however MCP is deeply ingrained into Forge, Forge’s patches and Forges toolchain, so transitioning from MCP to Yarn would be difficult.

No, MCP is the core and it will continue to be the core. I create MCP and thus I can trust in it's stability and availability.
If modders want to make a translation tool between the two so that Fabric can load on SRG names. Then go for it.

I have spoken many times about how a system should be designed. But the people who have said they wanted to help haven't followed through.

 

Anyways, getting tired of answering this. Forge will never use Fabric. Fabric's core design of "screw it everyone's a coremod!" is NOT feasible for a large compatible modding ecosystem. Forge's major rewrite is done, which means updates should be back to our normal same day target. Sorry for being 'slow' because we decided to cleanup 8 years of technical debt and plan for the next 10 years. 

Anyways, don't bump old threads.